CTL logging cost

Best Practices for CTL logging cost

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If you release the sapplings into individual crop trees they might bush out and stay short.

What kind of "junk" hardwood and softwood are we talking about? Almost anything is achievable if your careful and take your time. However even then the small stuff gets damaged.

If you gave the logger the merchantable wood, maybe. I think most CTL operations get around $45-$55/cd contract cutting, but this would require them to cut and skid a lot of unmerchantable wood that they wouldn't be getting paid for.

What kind of "junk" hardwood and softwood are we talking about?Hardwoods are poor quality hard and soft maple.Softwoods are rotten and/or small balsam fir.

It could be done, but hauling biomass cuts production in half generally. The logger would probably want to be paid hourly to put the biomass on the roadside. I know I would at least.

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Quote from: wannaergo on January 26, 2018, 06:49:15 AMIt could be done, but hauling biomass cuts production in half generally. The logger would probably want to be paid hourly to put the biomass on the roadside. I know I would at least.What would be a reasonable fee? Would it be more efficient if just the boles from the softwood trees were harvested. This would lower the biomass yield but would it also lower the logging cost?

If there's no softwood market, there's not really a point in trying to harvest the softwood in my opinion. I'd just chuck it in with the biomass. I personally would probably turn down a job like that unless I was paid at least $120/hr to pile biomass and the pulp was free or close to it.

Does your friend hunt deer?

I would suggest you take a good look at those quality saplings and poles?  Often, a mature canopy stand of poor quality will have a high percentage of stunted trees and when released will not respond well.  You can imagine if growing under the canopy for years, developing its branching and growth pattern it just can't become a high quality tree even with less competition.  Have you considered cutting bolts? Depending on your location you may find harvesting for the pallet market is much better than pulp or biomass.

All of what has been said is true. The pine pulp market is ok. All the balsam would be pulp. It's could be better as always. I would probably pass on a job like that unless I was paid plus keep the wood.

Volume/acre has yet to be discussed which would, I think, weigh heavily into the final decision.Clark

Quote from: wannaergo on January 26, 2018, 07:16:14 AMIf there's no softwood market, there's not really a point in trying to harvest the softwood in my opinion. I'd just chuck it in with the biomass. I personally would probably turn down a job like that unless I was paid at least $120/hr to pile biomass and the pulp was free or close to it.I guess my question is what if by processing the junk balsam and hardwood pulp/firewood into 100 sticks and leaving the limbs and tops behind does that make the processing/forwarding more efficient? Once the balsam sticks get to the landing they would be chipped into biomass. Does the ease of material handling make up for the loss of biomass tonnage?

Quote from: ahlkey on January 26, 2018, 08:50:55 PMI would suggest you take a good look at those quality saplings and poles?  Often, a mature canopy stand of poor quality will have a high percentage of stunted trees and when released will not respond well.  You can imagine if growing under the canopy for years, developing its branching and growth pattern it just can't become a high quality tree even with less competition.  Have you considered cutting bolts? Depending on your location you may find harvesting for the pallet market is much better than pulp or biomass.This stand was high graded 30 years ago. Where it was cut hard sapling regeneration has appeared. Saplings that were left at the last harvest have now grown into poles. The poor quality poles and sawtimber left behind have grown into large heavily branched wolf trees.  All the balsam was left and now most of that is rotten. The goal is to "turn over" this stand without having to start from scratch. Is that possible?

Quote from: Clark on January 26, 2018, 11:02:40 PMVolume/acre has yet to be discussed which would, I think, weigh heavily into the final decision.ClarkThe stand is very thick. I did not check it but I would guess the volume would be very high.

It sounds like something that needs clear cut and chipped to me.

Ditto that barbender.

A lot of variables. The fact that the stand was cut based on a high graded harvest 30 years doesn't guarantee those remaining sapling or poles are now high quality. I would suggest your friend have a local forester take a look. A couple of hours of his evaluation would  be money well spend in helping the direction to take.

I know this is an old thread but@Tarmdid you ever come to a conclusion on this?

I guess i will piggyback onto this thread since its related and gone dormant.How does the money (or bill) go for the landowner on something like this job?John Deere 1270D with H758 + John Deere 1410D - YouTubeI think im seeing a lot of maple pulp getting thinned. Pretty sure i saw orange spraypaint so a forestor must've marked the job first. B  It doesnt look like good firewood, i dont see a sawlog.. Can this product even pay enough to recover the contractors expenses on it?  Does the landowner get a check or a bill?  Im seeing a fortune in equipment going after toilet paper economics. What am i missing?

Mike what you're missing is that's Europe so it could be government ground or private which the taxes of the people could be helping pay for the thin.

Youre right i did, how can you tell its europe?Lets pretend its connecticut, kentucky or pennsylvania.  Landowner needs to pay right?

Go through the channel and you'll see that it's Europe pretty quick.At least out here not always, there's grants for different types of work to be done, plus you're always going to be a higher amount of pulp because that's the goal to reduce the pulp load for a better return. Typically we shoot for as close to possible for the land owner to be at 0 too high of a return equals a high graded stand depending on the quality from day one.

So "i will thin your place if i can have the culls" is a somewhat common arrangement?

NRCS funds cuts like these.

The stand was cut with a feller buncher/graple skidder. Stems that had softwood bolts or hardwood bolts/pulp/firewood were processed on the landing with a processor. All the junk plus all the tops were chipped for biomass. Because it was a very heavy cut the FB crew was willing to leave some of the higher quality poles standing.

Mike B.Stands like that are thinned here in WI. The key is a hardwood pulp market. If the logger has a pulp mill within a reasonable hauling distance he can make it work and still pay the landowner $10-$20 a cord for the pulp stumpage.

A lot of stands like that are thinned around here. We have decent hardwood pulp markets so the logger can make a buck and still pay the landowner.

Whats a ballpark figure on how many tons per acre come out of a heavy thin in hardwood?

Mike, this may not be helpful, but just found an old timber sale with a mix of hardwood and softwood. On paper it was 12 tons/acre softwood pulp and 8 tons/ acre hardwood pulp. Northeast Rhode Island.I did not bid on job, so can't give real world numbers.

Thanks man, its a good start.  That was a thin, or select or clearcut?  Just trying to get a mental picture.

Most sales we cut we removed 10-15 cord of pulp to the acre plus some sawlogs and bolts on top of that. Cut a few real junk jobs at 5-8 cord per acre of pulp removal just to stay busy during the spring time.

How many acres a day would be normal to bang out in a thinning on fair ground for one processor and one forwarder?  Im assuming 10-12 hr days?

I'm running 3 to 4 acres a day in good wood we can do just shy of 5.

Used to cut between 30 and 70 cord of wood during a ~8.5 hour day in the seat. So at 10-15 cord per acre that would be between 2 and 7 acres a day.

That was a thinning Mike.

Hmm, the CTL machines are moving at a pretty good pace.  Certainly a forwarder can move wood in worse conditions than a skidder.  With 90 inches of rain that forwarder is looking better every day.

We can definitely work on softer ground with CTL equipment, than conventional. On some larger sales, our conventional crew will cut the main body of it and we'll have one of our CTL crews cut the marginal areas. There's two reasons- the CTL machines, especially 8 wheel machines running over the tire tracks, just have a lot more flotation. Add to that the slash mat laid perpindicular across the trail, which makes a huge difference on soft ground. I was just in a spruce swamp today, it wasn't frozen at all. The ground is so soft that I could hit a grapple of wood on the ground and it actually ripples out 10' away. The slash mat keeps you on top of that, there were areas I had to cross where there wasn't any wood, and therefore no slash to drive on. You know you only get to cross that once or twice before you'll start to break through. I think a skidder would break through quickly out there, and so will big track bunchers and processors. There's a few (the track machines) that fall through the swamps every winter, when they do it's all the way! We'll have a rubber tire processor pop through were we have to give them a pull on occasion, when a track machine goes through there are crane mats, excavators, an prayers involved😁😂

That looks like a decent stand of beech.  Looks like that operator is a little rusty in hardwood but a guy could get decent production as long as its marked well.  Beech sure pounds a head to death though.

@barbenderwhat is the max that your buffalo king crane can lift?  Maybe@Skeans1team has lifted some large DF with a forwarder crane?  Could you lift a 30" trunk 24' long?

I made a loader on a truck groan a few times with some of the white pines that my Father and me cut. And that was only a 16 foot log,at 40 inches. And very close to the landing those trees was.

Quote from: nativewolf on December 30, 2018, 07:41:23 PM@barbenderwhat is the max that your buffalo king crane can lift?  Maybe@Skeans1team has lifted some large DF with a forwarder crane?  Could you lift a 30" trunk 24' long?I've done some 3 and 4 foot 20' plus a foot of trim Doug fir. A 30" at 24' plus a trim shouldn't be an issue. This old machine is a 97 TJ 1210B.

Nativewolf, I don't remember the lifting capacity offhand, I'm thinking it's 7-8000 pounds right next to the machine, iirc. I was just swinging around some 20" butt red pine 2 at a time yesterday, but I don't think that'd weigh as much as a 30" 24' hardwood log. I'm sure it would lift it, but honestly a steady diet of sticks like that you'd want a bigger crane. Ponsse just came out with a new crane (K121 I think is the model, mine is a K100) that is available on the Elephant and ElephantKing forwarders. Those machines are getting pretty huge, though, to the point you start having some road transport problems because they are so tall.

Honestly what might be better is a Timbco Timberpro forwarder with a standard boom then weight isn't as much of an issue.

There was a member here, I can't remember his name (CTL Logger maybe?) that was cutting long length hardwood in Pennsylvania I think. He went from a Cat forwarder to a Timberpro, and he was very, very happy with it iirc.

Thanks all!  The timberpro forwarders are huge, like a ponssee elephant.  No doubt those 2 would move some large logs but they are simply too large to use on many of our projects.Well, if you guys can lift the size logs you described we won't have issues with the wood we need to move.  If any of you ever make it to the DC area (wonderful place to visit) you can always stop by for a good meal.Here is an off thread weather comment.  This year Mt. Mitchell in NC will break the all time rainfall record for any location east of the pacific coast over 140".  Wilmington NC would have broken all time rainfall record...without Hurricane Florance.  With it that's well over 100".  We're sitting in the 70"ish range and I guess I have to feel lucky.

70 inches is the norm here. Where my wife and I first lived 90-100 was average.

Quote from: quilbilly on December 31, 2018, 03:45:58 PM70 inches is the norm here. Where my wife and I first lived 90-100 was average.We should wake the rain thread back up and leave this on topic I guess.  Bad habit of mine.

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