Opinions Of Fiat Allis 16b

Best Practices for Opinions Of Fiat Allis 16b

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Howdy hd16b. I'l post a few pictures & details on the fiat to cat bottom roller conversion on this thread.We did this back in the summer of 2011.My fiat pads and rails were 75% on my 16b but my rollers were shot.Long story short due to cost of new fiat rollers we converted to cat d7g rollers.The first issue was the fiat rails are about 5/8 inch wider than the cat d7 rails so I had to sacrifice a little steel buy machining off about 5/16 inch on each side of the inner flange of the new d7 roller so it would fit the fiat rail.That went pretty well then we got to drill some holes in the track frames.The bolt pattern was close enough on the width of the pillow blocks that I was able to use half of the existing bolt holes in the frame so that helped allot.Top roller in the picture is and old fiat and bottom is the new machined cat roller.

We also had to notch out about 1/4 inch on the track frames on each side and on the gussets "green arrows". used 13/16 inch drill in the magnetic press for the new holes "red arrows". Luckily the fiat frame is not tapped for threads,it uses a threaded block with two bolt holes in it so we just need to drill the holes,See "red arrows" in second picture. We used all single flange rollers for the project . Any questions on a 16B holler any time. I've been running mine for about 17 years now and cant think of to many bolts that I havent had out of it. I like the tractor overall.

Thanks a millon td25c.I bought my 16b on almost the same day my little girl was born in feb 08 and when i got it home it would not pull.After alot of testing and asking around i pulled the converter apart and found the nut that is supposed to be tightened to 900 ft pounds was not even hand tight.At the same time i went throug the transmisson to fix an oil transfer promblem and the rearend because it had 100thousands backlash. Been running very well since but the undercarriage is going to need some attention mainly segments and rollers and nobody anywhere can help me and i do not want to sell the tractor. would love to talk to you.

Looks good td25c

I have access to maybe 20 rollers for a 16B . I owned one for almost 20 years and have to say it was a fine machine . They need preventive maintenance though . change fluid and filters often . Had some serious issues over the years but that is part of the deal. I had to replace the tranny , i rebuilt the engine and put new outboard bearings on both side . my only complaint is the stupid way they try to seal the drive sprockets with the metal plates rubbing together .Great job on the conversion to cat. I have a friend that did the same on his machine but he went with a total Cat replacement ...rails, sprockets etc . Just wondering what the cost of a new roller is today.

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I bought a 16B last summer, it was not my first choice for a bigger dozer, but it is what I found, and the price was right. My machine is in great condition the meter says 3300 hours and there are some signs that it may be correct. I haven’t put a lot of hours on it yet, but so far it has burned the tips off of two injectors, easy enough to fix, but finding parts took a couple weeks. Aside from that it has been a couple hoses so can't really complain for a machine of that age. The issue that concerns me with it now is that it smokes excessively. White smoke still runs great, lots of power, but lots of smoke. The water stays up, and no bubbles in it. It also has a hard time starting in even mildly cold weather; I just hope it's not low compression.

White smoke and poor cold weather starting would be low compression usually

A little problem I had with the 16b was the 45 dregree suction elbo on the bottom of the transmission pump .It would develop cracks from the heat over time and the dozer would feel like the transmission or torque convertor was slipping from the air entering the system.plus at 80$ a piece I got tired of replacing it. I cut about 18" off the suction tube to allow me to use a 24" piece of flexible suction hose in place of the elbo.No more suction leaks or spending 80$ for an 1-1/2" rubber elbo. Also on the table are the outbord sprocket seals that Cat_man320 mentioned and a puller I made to remove the steering clutch coller drive plates from the taperd splined shafts on the rear end and final drive . I've made several tools over the years for the 16b. I even found the original cardbord template for the adapter plate when we installed the cummins engine.If I remember correct, the allis chalmers 17000 MK II engine would white smoke quite abit when the engine was cold,made good power and would clear up after it warmed up.

ror76a said:I bought a 16B last summer, it was not my first choice for a bigger dozer, but it is what I found, and the price was right. My machine is in great condition the meter says 3300 hours and there are some signs that it may be correct. I haven’t put a lot of hours on it yet, but so far it has burned the tips off of two injectors, easy enough to fix, but finding parts took a couple weeks. Aside from that it has been a couple hoses so can't really complain for a machine of that age. The issue that concerns me with it now is that it smokes excessively. White smoke still runs great, lots of power, but lots of smoke. The water stays up, and no bubbles in it. It also has a hard time starting in even mildly cold weather; I just hope it's not low compression.Click to expand...If you have white smoke after changing a few injectors , me thinks you still have a dead cylinder or injector is pumping too much fuel in on the piston . after the machine warms up ,go to low idle and crack each injector individually . You should have fuel peezing out around the nut and a pronounced miss that is clearly detectable . if the engine doesn't miss after checking all injectors , it may be low compression . White smoke = unburned fuel , blue smoke = lube oil getting in on top of piston,. When idling , does the engine have any blow-by coming from breather pipe or engine oil filler spout ? If you have excessive blow-by , chances are when you burned the tip off the injectors , you might have burned a hole in a piston. If its a burnt piston , you should notice the engine is missing on a cylinder. There are several other things that could cause white smoke , ie: bent valve , blown head gasket and even a restricted air intake system but you still should notice a pronounced miss and down on power . hope this helps find your problem .

Hi 25Cmind telling us what model cummins you repowered your 16 with ? And what happened to the 17000 ?Cheers merv :drinkup

Hi D6 MervWe used a 855 big cam II 300 cummins for the repower projectwww.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?11819-16b-engine-repowerHad some bad luck with the 17000 engine not long after I bought the dozer.About halfway in on a clearing job the crankshaft broke.We drug it back to the shop & called the Fiat Allis dealer on a new crank.They said it would cost 5500$............I said Hell no......... Ended up buying a 1982 Ford CL 9000 tractor for 2500$ and drove it home for the engine donor.I have allways liked the cummins engines for power and durability.The 17000 ran great and made good power but when the crank broke I had to try something else. I like the dozer and plan on keeping it for the duration

td25c, Iwould be very interested to know which crank your AC 17000 had. I`ve been told all the late model 844 ci engines (17000 & 25000) that were fitted with the Japanese made 6 counterweight crankshaft all gave prolific bottom end trouble. Broken shafts, run bearings, split main bearing carriers, longatudinal cracks in the shafts were all common. Made machine owners who were of normally sober habits just turn to the bottle! Some of them who really liked the engines aside from the bottom end failures and the constant attention needed to be given to the German Bosch fuel system, got crankshafts out of older 844s (16000 & 21000 engines that had the 12 counterweight crankshafts). When those were fitted, no more bottom end problems.

Thats a pretty good assessment of it Mactractor. Yes, my 16b had the japanese crank in it. We also looked at a few used cranks before commiting to the cummins repower and all of them had small cracks starting from the oil gallys on the crank journals.The japanese made a great motorcycle engine.........I dont know what happend on the 17000 crankshaft? bad steel,Poor forging, or maybe counterweight desighn change:beatsme We had an older hd16 cable blade that ran troublefree for years without any engine problems so your story sounds correct.Thanks for sharing that Mactractor.

td25c, my 16b has started leaking fuel at one of the delvery valves on the pump and the diesel shop said it was something that i could not fix was wondering if you have run across this before. would love to post some pictures of the root rake that i had made for the semi u blade but do not know how to post. on another topic i am 37 years old and have a bucyrus 22b dragline and was wondering how many young dragline operators are out there. i cant find anyone my age that even knows what a dragline is even less how to operate one

Never had any trouble with the pump or fuel system itself. Your question did spark my curiosity so I pulled a barrel out of my old pump this evening.Looks like the barrel/delivery valve on the bosch pump is sealed with an o-ring "red arrow" and a plastic square cut ring " green arrow" under the shims & flange.Also has a lip cut in the aluminum bore for the o-ring to set on.I would think a pump shop could fix it pretty easy with new rings unless the pump body is cracked or damaged somehow.I would like to see some pictures of your dozer and root rake setup.The 22b crane sounds cool,A classic crane for sure. Only dragline experience I have is using my old Insley truck crane with a 1/2 yard bucket.They come in hany at times. To post pictures check out this threadwww.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?21903-How-to-add-pics-to-forum-posts

Very interesting TD25C.; had a reread of this thread; that's the Robert Bosch fuel pump.I have a old Mitsubishi truck with the DC9 motor. Its fuel pump is a Japanese Diesel kiki pump and is exactly the same appearance and everything, complete to the pumping element design; plunger stays behind in pump, and barrel lifts off. Even the O ring design is the same. And yes mine has leaked the same and is just a matter of replacing the o rings. But take particular note of where the position of the barrel is. the holes are slotted to allow for fine tuning of the pump when running on a test bench, so it needs to go back in exactly the same place.Any fuel pump gurus know if im right in my thoughts that a Japanese diesel kiki pump is just a Japanese made under licence version of the Robert bosch pump ???? Thanks merv :drinkup

That's my understanding as well D6 Merv about the slotted holes in the plunger. I've heard of Diesel Kiki but don't know if there is a connection between two pump manufacturers ?

you are right d6 merv on the position of the barrels,I marked a line on mine but did not really matter because it was turned all one way and it did fix my leak,amazing how much it can leak. Also on a different note ,I am trying to sell a heavy duty root rake that fits an hd11 with a cframe,can see pictures of it on the ac forum under the classified section. Hope someone wants to buy it because don't want to sell for scrap or will trade for a rake that fits a w20c case loader

Glad to hear you got the leak fixed hd16b:thumbsup

Got my 16b in the shop today. What all is involved in changing the undercaraige out to cat, ecsecially in the sprocket change over .my rails are done, and I don't think I can find any. Anyone else know where some rails and sprockets are.

On the rear sprockets I would look in to a weld on repair ring for Cat D7G . Similar to this only drilled for segments like your 16B .http://www.hendersonmfgco.com/parts/parts_weld_on_sprocket_rims.htmWe put D7G bottom rollers on our 16B up thread .https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/opinions-of-fiat-allis-16b.22947/#post-413265Nice looking 16B Grantc !

I got a track taken off, and the thing has tons of play .I am slightly worried that someone has possibly taken a link out of the track . Which would be bad, if I had to find another link per side .Is there any way you can tell me how many pins are in your track on yours td25c .

I know the AC machine with 7 rollers had 41 links. Don't know if Fiat stayed with the original AC 16B design, though...

That sounds correct DIYDAVE . Will double check tomorrow .If the sprockets are sharp I'd guess it's had a link removed with the given condition of the track .On a good note Grantc's 16 looks pretty strait like it's been taken care of .Problem …… Rail's / bushings are more than likely shot .If I was going to keep the tractor would convert the undercarriage to Cat D7G .I know the bottom rollers will fit with a little work .

td25c said:On a good note Grantc's 16 looks pretty strait like it's been taken care of .Click to expand...Replacing / rebuilding the end bit's ?Cutting edge looks pretty good yet .Moldboard looks in good shape as well . No plate welded in the center , could be a low hour machine ?

The end bits had to come off to get it through the door into my shop, made it by 1/2" per side. LolThe sprockets are shot completely .the pins and bushings were laughable.But good news is that I counted 41 pins a side on mine. That would be some good news .I ran this tractor for very limited time (maybe like 20 hours) mostly ripper time. Cause the rippers planted the rear end and kept the tracks from slipping g mostly.The dozer runs exceptionally well, but I'd on wanna throw a ton of money at it in new parts, as I don't know what to expect the drives, motor and tranny to do long term.I have the tooling to do most of the machining myself, and am going to do it on the cheap and see if it runs out, then if it holds up, I will concert most likey.I am planning on machining the sprockest to accept a bushings that is heat treated and cut in half to fill machined spot and weld edges and am going to make new pins and bushings, and I am thinking about machining the bottom rollers and putting a 2 piece shell around then heat treated as well for now to see if this girl has some life left I it.I am only into this thing for 6k right now, so I guess I'll see if it is gonna warrant the money, I have a buddy that heat treats, and the machining is on me, so it won't be really any cost but the steel .Any advice on steel for pins and bushings? Haven't done any homework yet on it.

If you have the means to machine it. I would go with 4140 Prehard.

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Theweldor said:If you have the means to machine it. I would go with 4140 Prehard.Click to expand...If it's prehard, that gonna be hard to machine?

td25c said:Replacing / rebuilding the end bit's ?Cutting edge looks pretty good yet .Moldboard looks in good shape as well . No plate welded in the center , could be a low hour machine ?View attachment 190766Click to expand...The hour meter says little over 5k, for what thats worth.I have quite a bit of equipment, and judging by the wear in the lift cylinder bushings, and other areas, it looks like this was possibly the original under carriage i think. The bushings have been turned over already. Its does have part of the sub structue cut out on the passenger side under the lift cylinder, looks like they were trying to get something on the front of the motor im guessing, for easier access. You can see the weld line in the pic with the chain taken apart above

It machines well with good carbide tooling. Of you can figure out the dimensions you may be able to buy it to size. If you order it TPG { turned ground and polished} all you would have to do is cut it to length and put s slight chamfer on it.

from what i gather the pins are 1.875 and the bushings are 2.875, so its possible i could get that maybe. wouldnt be a big deal to cut ant then harden, i just dont know if it will change in size after heat treat, would wanna try a couple and verify, before i go for all of them.

You might want to build up the roller shells with weld and turn to specs if you're able to do the machining on the other parts. Some people submerge them while being welded to reduce heat. I have seen elaborate setups that turn the submerged shells as they're welded.

Well got the tracks off today, and opened the drives up, and suprise . Drivers side pinion has some very bad damage. 3 teeth have bad damage. Can't believe I didn't hear it. I have had damage before in other equipment, buy have allways heard/felt it.Now I have to try and find a pinion, or I guess have to try and repair this one. It keeps getting deeper. Ugh

td25c said:That sounds correct DIYDAVE . Will double check tomorrow .If the sprockets are sharp I'd guess it's had a link removed with the given condition of the track .On a good note Grantc's 16 looks pretty strait like it's been taken care of .Problem …… Rail's / bushings are more than likely shot .If I was going to keep the tractor would convert the undercarriage to Cat D7G .I know the bottom rollers will fit with a little work .Click to expand...Have you been into the finals on your 16b. The pinion in one of my drives is pretty tore up. To get it out, i don't know if you can sneak it out from outside, without going in from the trans side .by looking at the parts manuals, it looks like it could be possible, because of the tapered splines on the trans side.

At least you got it in your shop.

Grantc said:Have you been into the finals on your 16b. The pinion in one of my drives is pretty tore up. To get it out, i don't know if you can sneak it out from outside, without going in from the trans side .by looking at the parts manuals, it looks like it could be possible, because of the tapered splines on the trans side.Click to expand...Yes , been in both sides . Had a similar experience as you .I did notice a slight noise when tracking in reverse fast .My issue turned out to be the intermediate pinion shaft inner bearing was going out .It sets in a cavity behind the gear .Best to pull the final on the 16-B completely down & check all the bearings . That's more then likely what caused the gear failure .You will have to pull the steering clutch assembly & pull the brake drum hub to get the top pinion out .

HD 16-B gear & bearing pullers .Ever heard of " Junior's Parts " ? Looks like they keep some Allis / Fiat - Allis parts .https://www.juniorsparts.com/AC_88.aspxThey got my intermediate pinion shaft .https://www.juniorsparts.com/store.aspx?panel=3&productid=70651903&categoryid=88

The large live axle, you can slide out and then roll the bull gear out the opening at the rear, the intermediate gear is straightforward, but the small pinion gear/shaft has to be first separated from the steering clutch hub on the inside.Td answered your question as I was typing, comprehensively as usual.

Can't seem to find a good pinion, and can't keep putting money into this old girl. I have been trying anyway not to do it, but I think she is headed to the dismantler next week. Just too much stuff it needs with the while undercarriage and now a drive is what sent it over the edge for me.This machine has alot of great parts on it though, the rippers are in excellent shape, the blade and mold boards are too. The cylinders are all dry and in good shape also.Anyone have any interest in parts, let me know asap. Going to put the chains back on it, and get it out a the shop this weekend. The undercaraige is toast, of anyone is think that.

Don't give up so easy, Have you tried looking for parts over at the unofficial Allis Chalmers forum? Buncha great guys, over there, and if they can't finf the patys, they have a classified section, that you may be able to part it out, on...https://www.allischalmers.com/FORUM/forums.html

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